Back to School with COVID?
Government officials at all levels are moving too quickly to send kids back to school this fall. Public education advocates Devin Del Palacio & Dr. Dionne Mills join Our Future Now! hosts Natalie Mebane and Jonah Gottlieb to talk about the push to reopen schools as COVID-19 cases surge.
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In this episode of Our Future Now!, National Children’s Campaign co-founders Natalie Mebane and Jonah Gottlieb are joined by Dr. Dionne Mill, a board-certified OB-GYN Hospitalist, and returning guest Devin Del Palacio, Black Chair of the National School Board Association and a local school board in Arizona. They discuss the failures of their local government to prevent transmission and everything you need to know about schools reopening.
[00:00:00] Natalie: Our feature now is produced by Goal 17 Media storytellers for the common good.
Devin: What I’ve been telling folks is this. We can always catch up on ABCs. We can never bring someone back from the dead period. So why take the risk?
Jonah: Hey everyone. I’m Jonah Gottlieb and I’m the co-founder and executive director of the national children’s campaign, [00:00:30] Natalie and I’m the co-founder and vice president of public policy and government relations for the national children. This campaign. Welcome to our future now. On this episode, we’ll be breaking down what schools are going through as they will way reopening how the government’s actions are helping in harming students and what elected officials, community members, and you should be doing on behalf of America’s students.
Natalie: We have a returning guest today, Devin Del Palacio and a new guest dr. Dionne mills. [00:01:00] Devin is a school board member at the Tolleson union high school district in Arizona and the chair of the national black council of the national school board association. So welcome Devin. Welcome back. Hey everybody.
Devin: Thank you for having me. It’s an honor to be back, uh, looking forward to today’s discussion.
Natalie: Dr. Mills is a board-certified OB-GYN hospitalist originally from Trinidad and Tobago, and currently practicing in Phoenix, Arizona. So welcome so much dr. Mills to our future. Now,
[00:01:30] Dr.Mills: thank you so much for having me. It’s been really great to meet you.
Jonah: So doctor, I’m just gonna just ask straight up. Do you feel it’s safe to open schools right now?
Dr.Mills: Not where I live. That’s a nationwide question and it is a state specific answer. Each state is on the spectrum on recent criteria for opening. Um, in Arizona, we are definitely not appropriate for reopening.
Jonah: So dr. Mills, why do you say that you don’t meet the criteria? What, what’s the state looking like right now that makes you say [00:02:00] that it’s not safe.
Dr.Mills: So. The CDC and the world health organization, um, has made it very clear that. Each state needs to meet certain criteria in order to even be considered to reopen schools.
And we need to have low community spread to, to figure out if we have community spread that’s too high or too low. We look first at, um, our ability to test enough people. So right now we have a positivity rate of over 24, 23 [00:02:30] to 24% in Arizona. And the guidelines are that we should have a positivity rate of less than 5%.
And that indicates that. We’re not testing enough people. We’re only testing people that look really sick. So we’re also missing a lot of people that are not that sick, but are walking around infected. So we don’t have a good idea of what our viral load is in the state. And there’s other criteria. We need to be able to have hospitals not operating in surge capacity and crisis mode.
[00:03:00] We need to actually have appropriate resources. So that if we do have cases, we can, we can safely address them and, and treat the patients without causing a strain on the healthcare system.
Natalie: You know, you mentioned that the positive rate, you said that you right now, the tests that come back in Arizona are typically 23 to 25% of those cases that are.
Getting tested are coming back positive, which is a lot, you know, and that’s a quarter of the people actually getting tested. But you [00:03:30] said that the criteria says that we need it to be 3% in order to, is that to open schools or is that considered just a time that you’re, it’s a much safer,
Dr.Mills: it needs to be, it needs to be less than 5%. And that is actually the criteria for reopening anything. So restaurants, businesses, gyms, certain stores, non-essential places. We were supposed to have a positivity rate of less than 5% to even open those. So right now [00:04:00] our state has a list of places that are closed. Um, and they did extend that closure yesterday, but ironically, it doesn’t make sense.
They’re extending the closure because of the same criteria that they’re ignoring and saying that we have to reopen schools under. So the two don’t go together.
Natalie: I see. So you’re saying that overall it’s supposed to be less than 5% to open up anything that is not essential.
I didn’t, you know, I’m glad you mentioned that. Cause I actually did not know. [00:04:30] What essentially the criteria was that told people that this is a place where you can actually have a few more people gathered, obviously still with mass, obviously still socially distance. But that’s interesting that we are not even close in Arizona
Dr.Mills: and the series D put out a whole gating.
Process of what you do to get to the first step. And then when you’ve met the first step, what, what places can open under that first one? Arizona did not follow any those districts [00:05:00] instructions. They decided to go from reopening when they did not meet criteria in the first place. And then not even opening the stage one, you know, businesses, they just decided to open up everything and then they didn’t mandate maths from the beginning either.
So here we are.
Natalie: I didn’t really think about this before you open up something that is, as you [00:05:30] mentioned, you called it a mass spreading event, then. If you have that mass breeding event and it gets home to the parents and everyone else, you have the hospitals, which are already overwhelmed, be even more overwhelmed than they are today.
And so when you think about it, it causes a complete collapse. It seems like of the entire healthcare system. And then you have all these extra people sick unnecessarily that then die. Unnecessarily because they couldn’t get the care because the hospital system has been so [00:06:00] overwhelmed. I mean, that is, that sounds when I put it in that circle, it, it sounds like a nightmare of the scenario that we are setting ourselves up voluntarily to be in,
Jonah: because it’s not a circle, it’s a death spiral,
Natalie: you know, you’re right.
You’re right. Jonah. It’s a death spiral. It’s a death loop in the fact that it’s just a continuous cycle. That once you start is not going to stop. I mean, it’s, and it’s the idea that people are proposing doing this across the [00:06:30] country simultaneously, right? As schools typically open and the vog is early September in that range.
And to actually purposely put ourselves in that situation across the country just seems unimaginable.
Dr.Mills: But we put ourselves in this situation in the first place, all of this was preventable. There are thousands and thousands and thousands of cases and deaths that did not have to happen. We had no control over a pandemic occurring.
We had [00:07:00] control over the fact that we don’t believe in science in this country. We elected inept and impotent leaders and we didn’t do what needed to be done. So the first couple months. Okay. We’re learning, we’re figuring it out after that. This was all on us. If the schools wanted to be able to open if parents and legislatures and governors wanted schools to be open, [00:07:30] we definitely could have had schools open on time, on schedule, no concern easily.
And I say that with 99% certainty easily. If we had taken the necessary steps, but the problem is that America does not like discomfort market. Doesn’t like to be uncomfortable for the sake of the better. Good for the sake of other people, for the sake of health, for the sake of wellbeing, they just want [00:08:00] everything to feel good and they don’t want to have to sacrifice anything.
Everything could be prevented if we would just follow the science. I do not appreciate, uh, governor, uh, you know, treating the management of the pandemic, like a popularity contest. I don’t need the general public to be surveyed to see how they feel about wearing masks. That information is not relevant.
Devin: Everything that dr. Mills just said is 100% [00:08:30] correct. Unfortunately, leadership at the state and federal have advocated their duties to govern effectively. And so now we’re in a position in which lives unnecessarily lives have been lost. Uh, in Arizona, we recently had a situation where we lost a few teachers in Hayden, uh, got ill last year.
There’s three teachers that got ill and the Hayden Winkleman school district, they were in the same room teaching virtually. Six feet apart and wearing a mask. They did everything they could, they [00:09:00] were following rules. Yet. One of them still succumb to this virus. She died. She didn’t have to die. So that the is right.
How many more teachers. How many more staff members are we going to have to lose before we say it is not worth the risk. Um, and so, and that’s what as board members, that’s what physicians here that have been working with us have been saying, we’ve been beating the drum, sounding the alarm. Unfortunately, us sounding the alarm has fallen on deaf ears.
[00:09:30] Jonah: Devin. I heard during your last response, uh, the noises of small children in the background. Um, so obviously you have kids and so. What has it been like for them when they’ve had to wear masks for long periods of time? And what does that say about, you know, the safety of reopening schools in person? Yeah.
Devin: So I have a nine-year-old and also have a one and a half-year-old. She’ll be two in October. And to be fair, she actually loves her mask. The baby loves wearing her [00:10:00] mask. Now we don’t let her wear it for long. It’s just sort of a sh we let her put her on for a minute or two and we take it right back off.
But the nine-year-old. The nine-year-old, um, you know, we’ve had her wear a mask in certain situations and visiting family members, et cetera. And after about an hour, she says she can’t take it no more. It’s uncomfortable. It’s hot. She can’t breathe in it. So I don’t know if it’s realistic to say that they’re going to have second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth graders, where the thing for six, seven hours throughout [00:10:30] the day, you have a normal school day.
It’s just not, it’s just not realistic. And it’s also not realistic to say that we’re gonna have, uh, um, accurate social distancing within the classrooms. That’s just, it’s almost impossible. Schools, school districts don’t have the space and nor the luxury to be able to adhere to some of these CDC guidelines, which is all the more reason why we’re asking to delay in personnel.
Natalie: You [00:11:00] answered earlier about the school that took some precautions when their teachers were teaching. Um, and they had six feet apart. They had mass on, they were trying to do this virtual learning, but they were still in the classroom and it still didn’t work. Uh, the teacher still got sick. And so I would ask for you dr.
Mills. Are there any precautions that you think do work? I mean, is there a way to safely reopen schools if they say have mass on or is that even realistic?
Dr.Mills: It comes back to testing, testing, testing. I strongly believe and [00:11:30] looking at the studies from other countries, other countries, school districts that we need to test all staff, teachers, students, nurses, everybody, before they start school.
If those three teachers were had access to math testing before they walked into a room with each other, they would have known that one of them had COVID and they wouldn’t have gone into the room with the other two in the first place. So we have to have a way of testing. Does Arizona and most other States have access [00:12:00] to testing every single day?
Like the president does? No. So we are asking our teachers to do things without the tool that they need to do it properly. And listening to dr. Mills eloquently state, her case based on facts and science is the same reason why myself and hundreds of my colleagues, you don’t want to start in person school.
Devin: It’s just that cut and dry. Why take the [00:12:30] unnecessary risk? And what I’ve been telling folks is this. We, I always catch up on ABCs, but we can never bring someone back from the dead period. So why take the risk? And if in March we shut down and sent everyone home when it wasn’t as bad, how can we logically say it’s okay now with it being worse?
So look, um, it’s unfortunate, but again, the advocation of leadership from our state governor and federal leaders [00:13:00] and the pressure that is being put on other elected officials, uh, has been tremendous and they’ve really. Pigeon-holed a lot of school districts into a tough corner. Uh, according to our governors, uh, uh, guard governor’s executive order and Arizona, we’re mandated to give a space to provide a space where children can just go and hang out.
We don’t have to teach them. We don’t have to educate. They just need a space to hang out. So now he’s shifted the challenge or the [00:13:30] issue of daycare on the schools. So now you’re, you’re turning our teachers into babysitters. So, um, you know, as opposed to addressing the issue and addressing the real needs of child care.
Um, and, and so again, I was out there, said it earlier, the man punts, he constantly is punting. He punted on, uh, issuing a mandatory mass, uh, executive order. He punts it on reopening our schools. I’m looking out for the next NFL team to pick them up. He’s so good at punting. So, um, and that’s where [00:14:00] we’re at in Arizona.
Natalie: Horrendous. And then we see that different responses at the state level, depending on where you go and what local levels, but what would you say are the main things that every level federal, state and local has to do right away?
Dr.Mills: I just want to take a step back and say, this is the bad that we made as a nation.
I mean, we have underfunded schools. We have undervalued education. We don’t educate our students about history or [00:14:30] reality for that matter, which makes an ignorant populace, which makes an, a populace that’s able to be, you know, uh, swindled into not believing in facts at all, which then makes them not see the value in education, which makes them able to vote for, uh, elected officials who also want to sabotage the education system all while.
Making the education system, the babysitter of the country. And then we wonder why we’re in this position. This [00:15:00] system is that so that parents are depending on. School is to babysit. And if it was to where we actually had proper resources for parents with childcare, uh, paid family, leave other community resources.
We had more funding of be here, rural health services and social services. The reason why parents are knocking on the door of the school is begging for them to take their kids is because they have to go to work. I don’t, I don’t know. Maybe I’m sorry.
Devin: No, you’re not. You’re [00:15:30] not cynical dr. Mills. And in fact, it’s a harsh reality that a lot of us need to hear.
And the truth is bad. People are elected by good people who don’t vote. Okay, bad people are elected by good people who don’t vote, right. Folks who don’t care for it, or who want to nitpick, as you mentioned, uh, who wears what who’s stuttering, et cetera. And so we get what we deserve, but at the end of the day, right now, during this time a code red.
We are the leaders we’ve been looking for. We are the leaders we’ve been looking [00:16:00] for it as us that needs to take control, um, of what’s happened in our community and as us, that needs to educate our neighbors because no one else is going to do it. And so that’s why we’re here today. That’s why we put together the press conference a few weeks ago.
And that’s why we teamed up how professionals and education leaders, because we’re saying. Enough is enough. We’re not going to be Guinea pigs. You’re not going to play Russian roulette with us. No more lives loss. And so that’s what we’re doing. Everything we can to ensure that safety is priority.
Jonah: I think that’s absolutely right. [00:16:30] And I think that one real problem, and that’s kind of the reason that we have these elected officials who are, who they are is because people care about their kids in every single place except the voting booth. And so that’s kind of what we’re trying to do with the vote for our future campaign is make sure that every single young person is talking to their parents, talking to their siblings, talking to their neighbors, to their teachers, to their coaches, to their doctors about why their vote matters [00:17:00] and why you need to vote.
If you are able to vote on behalf of young people, because we can’t do it ourselves, Jonah,
Devin: I’ll just, and I’ll just say this, um, We’ve seen an influx of new education champions. All of a sudden people now realize how important school is and the emotional and social impact schools have on our kids. So I welcome all this new energy because we were pre-pandemic.
People were silent when a lot of folks like myself [00:17:30] and, and yeah, we’re beating the drum saying, please, our schools need resources. We need resources to serve our kids. To ensure we’re doing it equitably. And so now all of a sudden we have all these new voices, all this fresh energy singing the praises of public schools.
So let’s see that put an action. As Jonah said, let’s see you come out to the pools. We welcome you. We welcome all these new education support.
Natalie: You [00:18:00] know, there’s the tweet that Robert Reich has put out, uh, today that says the school attended by Trump’s son bear and will not reopen in September to protect students from COVID-19. Meanwhile, Trump is pushing for school to reopen the spite, the concerns of public health experts. All children should be protected from the virus.
Not only rich kids, you know, it’s the same thing from a Senator, Rick Scott of Florida, he was asked about his grandchildren who are school age. And he said, Oh, you know, I definitely think school should reopen. I think schools should be open. And they said, well, what about your grandkids? Are they going to [00:18:30] be attending school this fall?
He said, Oh, um, my, my kids are going to be doing some distance learning. This wall. So the hypocrisy, you know, Rick Scott, he, he, he knows the risk. He wants his kids, his grandkids to be protected. He wants the economy to go back to how it was, but he wants everyone. Else’s kids to be the sacrifice. So that’s the problem.
We all know the truth. The people that are pushing for school three open know the truth. I don’t feel that they’re just simply completely ignorant of the science. I [00:19:00] just think they don’t care. And they know that their families will be protected. Their kids will be inside. Socially distance that with the best mask, when they go out and everyone else’s kids will be thrown into the public school systems, mostly that they’re forcing and trying to force open with a crowbar
Dr.Mills: Natalie, to your point, you know, this is where equity comes in.
Okay. When you have leaders who treat. Decision-making either overtly acting like they’re ignorant about the [00:19:30] disparities or purposely trying to cater and sabotage things. What I mean is that we have seen that social economic status and race play a role in not only, um, who is affected by policies. The voice that people have when it comes to how those policies affect them.
When we have people who, for instance, you know, the Senator who was able to say, well, I want, you know, my, I want my kids to stay home and being [00:20:00] safe, but other people’s kids can go back to school. It shows that they do not have a respect. For the sanctity of life of all kids, but they do not see the health and safety and wellbeing of other people’s kids in the same level as they see their kids.
And we know that most of the vulnerable populations that are going to be affected by the upper class, going out and having elaborate vacations without socially distancing, the people who are going to pay for it are the, is in the lower [00:20:30] socioeconomic classes. Once again, it’s that spiral and that thing of everybody’s life affecting everybody else.
So when we see that hypocrisy, we see that, you know, even something like testing, as I said, Trump gets tested on a regular basis yet he refuses to act to acknowledge the benefit of everybody being able to have access to testing. So it, I agree with you that it is a conscious thing. It’s not just about being ignorant about something it’s about not caring about certain populations as much as they should.
And that’s why we [00:21:00] need to speak out and we need to speak up because. It’s important to advocate for those who are really going to be more drastically affected by the policies that are made.
Devin: Yup. And dr. Mills, I’m going to piggyback on what you said. We got to speak up and speak out one way to do that is by voting.
Right. We know that change comes through the ballot box. We vote for a future campaign is not just simply a hashtag. It’s literally a movement that is going to shape our country and has a potential. [00:21:30] To really take us in a new direction. This is probably the most important election in modern history.
Seriously. I mean, this is like, this is really gonna, I think in my opinion, make or break us, it’s going to make or break us. And so I’m hoping that, uh, people will step up. I’m hoping that people will not give in and give up as the late great Congressman. John Lewis used to say, let’s get into some good trouble.
Let’s take this. BattleBots let’s honor. Our ancestors. We stand on their [00:22:00] sacrifices. Let’s not let them down. Let’s honor their voice and let’s go to the polls. Let’s head out and vote to create the nation that it is on paper. I completely agree with you, Devon. I think that’s really well put.
Jonah: So coming up, we have a vote for our future event with Devin and with dr. Mills aimed at making sure that everyone is aware of just how intersectional education and health care is, especially during a pandemic and during a debate about reopening schools and putting children and teachers and [00:22:30] parents and school employees in harms way. And so please, if you want to check that out, go to vote for our future.org.
If you go to vote for our future.org/events, you can find more information there. And again, if you want to register to vote or vote by mail, learn anything at all about any elections happening near you. Go to vote for our future.org/vote.
Natalie: I want to say thank you. So much to Devin Del Palacio, as well as dr. [00:23:00] Dionne mills for being here with us today, you have given us so much information, so much great content to learn from about, you know, why it’s dangerous to reopen schools and what we really need to do. If we want to get to a place as a country, we’re opening schools can be safe.
I just want to ask each of you, uh, for Devin, you know, any final thoughts, anything that last thoughts that you’d like to share with our audience
Devin: we’re in code red. And you cannot, you cannot sit on the sidelines. Please speak up, please be [00:23:30] active. The Cape for your children. Sometimes our children’s voices aren’t as loud as ours, please, please don’t give up on them.
Don’t give up one. Our teachers, our staff, they are truly shaping the minds of our future. And right now they need us. They need us to have their backs. So please join us in, standing up. Please get out there and vote. Be a part of, for a future. Take action. Don’t be idle. Don’t sit on the sidelines. We need you.
Natalie: Do you have any final thoughts or any, any lasting words you’d like to leave with our audience?
[00:24:00] Dr.Mills: I repeat the phrase. I’ve been saying all the time, which is follow the science. It’s really simple. Sometimes the most simplest things we could do are not necessarily the easiest things, but they are still the simplest things we can do.
We’re making things too complicated. It doesn’t have to be that complicated. I do. Echo what everyone is saying. And I just want to say that it’s important for us to advocate for children. And that includes advocating for [00:24:30] adults because children are traumatized when they see the adults in their lives, sick and unhealthy and dead.
So we need to just prioritize. It’s not about comfort. It’s about safety and the two don’t always go together.
Natalie: Wow. Well, thank you all so much for being here today. Uh, we really appreciate your insights and, you know, we couldn’t couldn’t agree more. Listen to the science and also advocate and take action.
Jonah: And of course, thank you both so much for your work dr. [00:25:00] Mills for your advocacy. And obviously you work directly with, uh, people, the coronavirus and other illness. It says, and with a Devin of course, constant advocacy on behalf of young people on behalf of families on behalf of America’s children, on behalf of students, the truly the two of you are making this country a better place.
And. At this time right now, we need it.
Dr.Mills: Thank you so much for having us. It’s been an honor to meet with you. Talk with you and collaborate with [00:25:30] you. Thank you for having me.
Devin: Again. It was an honor to be back. Thank you, Natalie. Thank you, Jonah, for giving us a platform to share and discuss these important issues.
Jonah: That’s a wrap on this episode of our future. Now, thank you so much for listening. Please be sure to visit vote for our future.org for more information on our virtual events and how to make a difference in your community.
Our feature now is produced by goal 17 media [00:26:00] storytellers for the common good. We would like to give a special thanks to our media partners, parents homology.
Natalie: Be sure to subscribe on your favorite streaming platform and share this episode with your family and friends on social media. I’m Natalie Nubain
Jonah: and I’m Jonah Gottlieb.
Natalie: And this is our future. Now .
